Sophocles The Oedipus Cycle. .................. Translated by: Dudly Fitts & Robert Fitzgerald

A new translation by .................................................................................... Philip Vellacott.
"Sara Vinki"

^^>> Sophocles Electra and Other Plays: Philoctetes, Women of Trachis, Electra, Ajax.
A new translation by ................................................................................................ E. F. Watling.

A new translation by ........................................................................................... Philip Vellacott.

Later one of the teachers asked where I got all these ideas about quality. I said I got them from Sarah. The teacher's expression brightened, and he said, "That's why she has always supported you!" This was the first I realized others were not supporting me. Much later Sarah came out of one such discussion and said to me furiously, "Don't pay any attention to them! It's over their 'heads !" Her opinion and her angry expression of it has come back to me many times, consolingly, since then.

*************

**********************************

Letters To and From ZMM Author, Robert Pirsig, December 2006 thru 23 Sept 2007. He Willingly Answered My Questions Concerning His Book and Other Topics:

********************************************************

Sophocles The Oedipus Cycle. Translated by: Dudly Fitts & Robert Fitzgerald

^^>> Sophocles Electra and Other Plays: Philoctetes, Women of Trachis, Electra, Ajax.

^^>> Euripides Alcestis and Other Plays: Hippolytus, Iphigenia in Tauris, Alcestis.

For Sara Vinki with my deepest gratitude for her assistance both as a teacher and a colleague - Vern Dusenberry."

"Sarah Jennings Vinki "With dearest love to Sarah. Courage to go on." (A book of poems.)

Footnote: **Helen of Troy ............................................................................John Erskinel.

***************************************************

***** END Book List. **********

**^^>> Euripides Alcestis and Other Plays: Hippolytus, Iphigenia in Tauris, Alcestis.
A new translation by Philip Vellacott.
"Sara Vinki"

"Sara Vinki" ( A play re Hungarian resistance against Austro-Hungarian Empire.)

Letters To and From ZMM Author, Robert Pirsig, December 2006 thru 15 Sept 2008. He Willingly Answered My Questions Concerning His Book and Other Topics:

NOTE: Each solid line below, starts a new letter sequence, where my letter to Mr. Pirsig is followed by his reply. I have also shown the content of various enclosures in either of our letters, as well as other relevant supplementary material. (In several cases my correlated letter to Mr Pirsig is unavailable and thus absent below.) Editing changes (or explanations) not in our original letters are in [brackets].

For Mr. Pirsig's letters to me (1994 thru 2005), click in menu at upper left.

My Questions to Mr. Robert Pirsig Concerning: 1) An Old Map of John Sutherland's, 2) The ZMM Route Out of Minneapolis & 3) The Mt. Climb Route in the Mountains South of Bozeman. Dated 12 December 2006.

I am delighted that you were so pleased with your Guardian Interview. I had already seen it compliments to Ian and Anthony. Indeed it is a very good interview. Much better than the Philosopher one. [For link, to this interview, click on "ZMM Links" in menu at upper left.]

I've been using Google Earth for several years and find that it's getting better all the time with more areas at higher resolution. Since this was the first time Chris had done any mountain climbing I wanted to keep the route short. We went nowhere near the places shown on your [Google] Earth map. We went maybe a half mile up Cottonwood Creek and then over the ridge into Hyalite Canyon by the shortest route.

My Additional Questions Concerning Certain Portions of ZMM Mountain Climb Narrative Fictional? Dated February 21, 2007. Mr. Pirsig's reply (post marked 5 Mar 07) was added in pencil to my original letter to him, as is shown below in ALL CAPS below.

RP REPLY: "IT DOESN'T FIT".

Any way I hope you enjoyed the photos and re-acquaintance with Cottonwood Canyon, Fox Creek, and Mt. Blackmore. Did you use Google Earth to "fly" up the canyon to the mountain? RP REPLY: "YES".

Thank you again for all your help. The robins have been coming thru here in mass and yesterday I heard two Cardinals in a song contest. I hope they will soon be visiting you and yours. RP REPLY: "THEY'VE BEEN HERE ALL WINTER!!".

My Questions Concerning the Origins of Mr. Pirsig's Use Of the Word "Quality" As Expressed In ZMM. Also Related Questions Concerning How Sara Vinki, Robert DeWeese and Gennie DeWeese May Have Contributed to Mr. Pirsig's Concepts of "Quality". Dated 8 Sept 2008.

Subject [Of This Letter]:
Researching the origins and early impetus for Robert Pirsig's word Quality, which is the central focus of ZMM and Lila. Trying to find the facts behind a literary creation.

Preamble:
We inquire into the roots of Robert Pirsig concept of MOQ, because these concept are such a vital and central aspect of his writing.. And because MOQ is indeed such a decisive unique contribution to modern philosophy, and an important bridge to both ancient western as well as eastern philosophies. Please understand that in this inquiry do we in any way, mean to reduce, or minimize Mr. Pirsig's own contributions to the full development of this philosophy. Just as he sought understanding of why John and Sylvie resisted technology, we seek to trace out the earliest threads (roots) to his early thinking on The Meta Physics of Quality.

Dear Mr Pirsig

Some interesting historical questions, concerning ZMM have been raised by Mr. Lee Glover, a retired software engineer, and video photographer. These questions have been raised in connection with Mr. Glover's forth coming ZMM DVD Documentary, for which preliminary video camera work is in progress.

In the process of his DVD effort, Mr. Glover had extensive discussions with Tina DeWeese of Bozeman. In one topic, Ms DeWeese told of the social events at the DeWeese's Art Studio in Bozeman (~1950's and 1960's) where "quality" was a big topic of discussion. Ms DeWeese related how "Quality" (as a specific key word and artistic concept), was strongly emphasizes in the Robert and Gennie DeWeese circle of friends during various conversations, and especially at parties and gatherings of the art community in Bozeman.

Ms DeWeese has the clear impressions of her parents (and their artistic community) extensively using the the word Quality as a way to convey to each other what they were trying to accomplish in their art, and whether their or an art was any good.

'Therefore Mr Glover and I are moved to ask:''

1) It seems probable that you, Mr. Pirsig, would have been exposed to this "Quality" emphasis of Dr. and Mrs DeWeese. We, following Tina's lead, wonder what you may remember concerning this use of "Quality" in the DeWeese circle of influence? In other words, did the DeWeese's provided an additional impetus for your development of the concept of Quality?

2) Thus it seems possible that the DeWeese's may have prepared the "seed bed" for MOQ. So we ask: Is it possible that you were thus readied for Sara Vinke, when she came trotting by and asked "Are you teaching Quality these days?".

2) Beyond the information given in ZMM, could you tell us more about the Sara Vinke story and how she contributed to your thinking. Surly there is much more of interest to this story, than space allowed in ZMM?

4) Because the concept of Quality is so central to ZMM, and Sara Vinke critical to providing the "seed crystal" to your own MOQ, I have tried to collect as much information as possible concerning Sara Vinke. I especially sought the extent of her own knowledge of Classical Greek culture. I inquired about any tendency for her to use the words quality or excellence or Arite' in conversations or teaching. I have interviewed four Bozeman persons who knew her: Genie DeWeese, a man who was in your English class, as well as his wife, both of which knew Professor Vinke, and Shirley Luhrsen, of Bozeman, who a new English teacher, worked under Professor Vinke's guidance.

4 cont) Gennie was able to say that Professor Vinke was an excellent teacher, but was unsure about Prof. Vinke's knowledge of Classical Greek or use of word quality. Your former student and his wife had no hint of memory of Professor Vinke's Classical Greek or Quality emphasis, but reported that it was a common lore among the MSC students that any one who would bring her a jar of watermelon rind pickles would get an "A" in the class! From Mrs. Luhrsen, I was able to discover the names of a few book Vinke owned, some of which were about "Classical Greeks" (see book list attached) but otherwise there was little other information supporting the Greek Classics aspects of Sara Vinke, that are mentioned in ZMM. From my informants, I did not find any information to suggest Prof Vinke used the term quality, or similar special teaching emphasis, beyond that which would be good English Professor guidance re good writing and scholarship. I found plenty of evidence Sarah was a Quality person and Quality teacher, but did not find any clues relating to why or how she would have said to you repeatedly "Are you teaching Quality these days?"

4 cont) In view of a general lack of information concerning Professor Vinke, could you tell us, for the sake of history, what you remember of Sarah Vinke, as a teacher and a person. And can you give us a mini-biography, which expands on the facts already given in ZMM?. For example do you have any information about what she studied in her formal education? (The Guidebook to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, by Ron Di Santo & Thomas Steele, merely says: "Sarah J. Vinke , A.B. 1914, Grinnell College; A.M. 1921 and Ph.D. 1923, Wisconsin University. was formerly chair of the English department at Montana State College.)"

5) I just had an additional idea: Considering the outstanding career of Professor Vinke, it would greatly honor her, if you could write up a piece about her that could published, or posted on the Internet. I can think of no greater tribute to to the memory Sarah Vinke! Otherwise there seems to be very little available. I have searched the Internet and Montana State University archives, with very little found.

We trust these are suitable questions to merit your attention.

Thanking you n advance for your assistance.

Henry Gurr [signed in hand]

PS: Several persons over the years seem to have had a copy of the original typed up manuscripts of ZMM. (The original version, that would have been sent, at first, to Morrow.) However none of these has actually materialized. I hope that you have one of these copies and have it in a safe place, along with numerous Back-Up copies, which are destined to a safe and permanent archive.

PSS: The above prompts a crystallization: AHA! Could the original manuscript version be published? A limited edition might be self supporting. As an alternate, an Internet Digital Book version for sale, like Lila's Child. It could even be posted directly as an Internet down load, with appropriate copy right clearances etc. I would be glad to help in any way that seems appropriate. This might include, financial support, donated web space, or various forms of leg work.

PSS: The attached book list shows a (possibly non-representative) sampling of books once owned by Sara Vinke. These books come to my attention, merely because they were transferred by Professor Vinke to Shirley Luhrsen. Mrs Luhrsen became a member of the Montana State University Bozeman English Department ~1946 as a newly minted Undergraduate. She was hired to teach the influx of Veterans returning from WW II. This started a long mutual friendship, as evidenced by Mrs. Luhrsen receiving these books. I came to know Mrs. Luhrsen, because she was mentioned in Gary Wegner's photos as having been introduced to you by Sarah Vinki. You were at your desk in your English Department Office at that time. Mrs. Luhrsen recounted how you were sort of a care giver to Professor Vinke, because she was loosing strength and was on crutches.You regularly were helping Professor Vinke move around, and helping her to stretch out to rest on a cot in a nearby office, This was the last year of Professor Vinke's teaching. As part of my research re Professor Vinke's use of Quality, I requested Mrs. Luhrsen provided me with a long draft of her relationship with Sarah Vinki. I can send you a copy should you desire it.

PSSS: Please note Vern Dusenberry Thesis, is included in the attached book list! Note also transcript of Dr. Dusenberry's autograph.

Enclosure to Mr Pirsig: Books Once Owned by Sara Vinki & Transferred To Shirley Luhrsen of Bozeman Montana. Subsequently Transferred to Henry Gurr ~11 Sept 2006.

1) These books by statement of Mrs. Shirley Luhrsen, were once owned by Professor Sara Vinke, and were given to Mrs. Luhrsen by Professor Vinke.
2) The fact that these books were once Sarah Vinke's is confirmed by inscriptions found on right page just inside each book cover. These (and all) inscriptions are shown below in quotes.
3) Title and author are given and listed in order of Greek Classical Relevance.
4) Codes for >> and ^^ are given below.
5) File Version =10B.rtf

*********************************************************************

Sophocles The Oedipus Cycle Translated by: Dudly Fitts & Robert Fitzgerald
"S. Vinke"

**Euripides The Bacchae and Other Plays:. Ion, The Woman of Troy, Helen, The Bacchae.
A new translation by Philip Vellacott."Sara Vinki"
No hand written inscription., however on pages 9 thru 12, in the introduction the following underlining are found: ...integrity and intelligence combine in his search for the truth. .......the voice of the whole of that suffering, venturing, relentlessly thinking generation for whom Euripides wrote, ..........sets it fairly in sight besides his orthodoxy for consideration. .....growing scepticism about mythical origins. ...... almost certainly the son of some visitor to the Bacchic mysteries; .........He puts it to her that her seducer was not Apollo but a man ........... Creusa continues to believe in her divine lover ........she pursues belief like a duty. ........may look for guidance only to the honesty of his own heart.

**^^>> Sophocles Electra and Other Plays: Philoctetes, Women of Trachis, Electra, Ajax.
A new translation by E. F. Watling.

 "Sara Vinki"

**^^>> Euripides Alcestis and Other Plays: Hippolytus, Iphigenia in Tauris, Alcestis.
A new translation by Philip Vellacott.
"Sara Vinki"

The White Goddess: A Historical Grammar of Poetic Myth .........................Robert Graves
"Mrs Sara Vinki, 521 West Arthur St, Bozeman Montana."
(Welsh, Celtic, England myths and tales are first discussed. but also discusses myths of peoples surrounding Classical Greeks.

The Montana Cree: A Study In Religious Persistence." ...........................Vern Dusenberry
"For Sara Vinki with my deepest gratitude for her assistance both as a teacher and a colleague - Vern Dusenberry."

The Dark Is Light Enough. ...........................................................................Christopher Fry

 "Sara Vinki" ( A play re Hungarian resistance against Austro-Hungarian Empire.)

A Shropshire Lad ..........................................................................................A. E. Houseman
'Sarah Jennings Vinki "With dearest love to Sarah. Courage to go on." (A book of poems.)

Footnote: ** Helen of Troy ............................................................................John Erskinel.
This book, published in ~1925, is modern version of the Helen of Troy story. It uses the names of the persons of Classical Greece, but otherwise is a modern story. We probably can not learn from this book, anything about Professor Vinke's interest in Classical Greece. HSG.

An Amazon Reader Review says: John Erskine, concert pianist, head of the Juilliard School, English professor at Columbia, turned his hand to a series of literate, witty novels in the 1920s, and this, to my ear, is the best. It challenges the young, the foolish, and the conventional with paradox and honesty. Read it as a record of America in the 1920s and as a whimsical continuation of the Iliad. .....

Amazon Product Description says: After Troy, Helen reestablished herself in the home. It will be seen that apart from her divine beauty and entire frankness she was a conventional woman.

Amazon Editorial Reviews: Book Description summarizes the chapters of the book: Helen's Return; The Younger Generation; Their Elders; Death and Birth; Helen's Beauty.

NOTES:

Above Titles marked with ^^ are "Penguin Books for College." offered by the D. C. Heath and Company.

Above Titles marked with >> have a yellow-bege slip pasted inside the front cover: "
THIS BOOK SENT AT THE REQUEST OF L. R. Taylor, for your examination and consideration as a text. D. C. Heath and Company., 1815 Prairie Avenue, Chicago 16, Illinois"

Above Titles marked with ^^ have a yellow slip with the following text used as a book mark:. "
PENGUIN BOOKS FOR COLLEGE.D. C. HEATH AND COMPANY. Penguin Classics and Selected Titles from other Penguin Books are offered for class use by joint arrangement with PENGUIN BOOKS INC and D. C. HEATH AND COMPANY.
Orders should be sent to .........................................Requests for ? sample?
PENGUIN BOOKS INC ..........................................D. C. HEATH
3300 Clipper Mill Road ...........................................1815 Prairie Avenue
Baltimore, Maryland .................................................Chicago 16, Illinois

The book, Euripides, has the following label pasted on to the bottom 2/3 of the cover.
(This label has the right hand portion of this label torn off obscuring part of the text as indicated below by ?question marks?)

Penguin classics and Selected Titles from ?our Classics? Books are offered for class use by joint arrangement with Allen Lane, Inc and D. C. Heath.
Orders should be sent to ............................................Requests for ?sample ?
ALLEN LANE, INC ...................................................D. C. HEATH
3300 Clipper Mill Road ..............................................Boston New York ? ?"
Baltimore, Maryland. Atlanta Dallas ? ?
a***** END Book List. **********a

Mr. Pirsig's Reply. Dated 15 Sept 2008.

Dear Prof. Gurr,

In ZMM I wrote that there were two main groups who responded to the word, "quality:" those who thought it was a subjective and relatively meaningless term, and those who thought it was so obvious it didn't need to be discussed. The DeWeeses were in the latter group. I don't recall them ever using the term except in reference to my use of it. Bob DeWeese was a little cynical about intellectualizing anything. The quality ZMM talks about is just something they did without intellectual analysis. I remember Bob used the term "nice" for something he really liked, but beyond that, nothing. The artist who influenced me the most was Phyllis Downs, a next door neighbor in Minneapolis. When people discussed art, her usual comment was "They haven't got a clue." In MOQ terms, what the serious artist seeks is indefinable Dynamic Quality.

Sarah's maiden name was Jennings. I believe she said she studied at Bryn Mawr and was part of the Daisy Chain. I'm not sure if this referred to the Seven Sisters colleges generally or to a Bryn Mawr ceremony at the turn of the 20th century. This is all I know of her background.

When Sarah asked if I was teaching Quality, I think she was teasing, just to see how I would answer. I answered with the same kind of suppressed smile, saying I was making a special effort at it. She knew that was a lie and she knew that I knew it was a lie and this sort of tickled her, so she kept up the teasing.

Later one of the teachers asked where I got all these ideas about quality. I said I got them from Sarah. The teacher's expression brightened, and he said, "That's why she has always supported you!" This was the first I realized others were 'not' supporting me. Much later Sarah came out of one such discussion and said to me furiously, "Don't pay any attention to them! It's over their heads!" Her opinion and her angry expression of it has come back to me many times, consolingly, since then.

Best regards,

[ Robert M. Pirsig written by hand.]

END 2006 - 2008 Letters To/From Pirsig.

Click here for More Robert Pirsig's letters To From Henry Gurr 1994 thru 2005.

B) What was the ZMM Route out of Minneapolis? What are your thoughts re the following choices?
a) Following the much less traveled Rt 55? OR
b) following the highly commercialized & very high traffic of Rt 10 mentioned to Gary Wegner recently as being the one you remember as taking in 1968? Please study both of these:

Dear Prof Gurr

Dear Prof. Gurr,

As Mentioned In Mr. Pirsig's Letter Above, Here Is a Description of the Eleven Colored Paper Maps He Sent Me. (Relatively hi storage space requirements dissuaded me from posting these maps. Contact me if you wish to see them.) For Each Map I Indicate the Series of Main Towns That Appear Along The Route He Marked In Red Thereon.

Here Starts Information Sent With My Letter Above: It Was Intended to Tell Mr. Pirsig How To Use GoogleEarth for Dynamic Views Of Cottonwood Canyon and Mt. Blackmore. These instructions are here so:

a) You know the full info available to Mr. Pirsig when he replied "Doesn't Fit" to my ZMM Hypothetical Mr. Climb Trail. and
b) You also could have the great fun of experiencing these "Flights Up Cottonwood Canyon.!!!
Reproduced Here Is My Appendix (Slightly Modified For Web Audience) That I Enclosed With My Above Letter to Mr. Pirsig: [Apparently Mr. Pirsig was already quite familiar with GoogleEarth and said it was wonderful!]

7) Side by side comparison of a GoogleEarth view and one of my real photographs, at the same location, show very good accuracy of mountain shapes and even vegetation! Try it! It is easy, comes up quickly and is lots of fun! Static View 4 (mentioned several paragraphs below.) describes the GoogleEarth View You Will Now See photo of
a) Cottonwood Canyon,
b) Fox Creek Canyon,
c) Narrator's Ridge at Mt. Blackmore's West flank marked by distant yellow stickpin, and
d) distant Mt. Blackmore. Click link now.

Conclusion: Well there you [Mr. Pirsig] have my hypothesis. What do you [Mr. Pirsig] think?

I have only one major reservation: The distance, from the DeWeeses' is a fairly large ~9 miles. Chris and the Narrator could get pretty tired in that distance. Also this is quite a bit more than the Narrator's plans stated on page 173: "Three days hard to the snow. Four days easy." Mt. Blackmore is about 13 miles from the DeWeeses, so the Narrator's plan works out to about 3 to 4 miles per day.
However nine miles in one full day seems possible, since normal walking speed is ~ 3 Miles per hour and over 2/3 of the route in Cottonwood Canyon & Fox Creek route (to a hypothetical campsite near base of Blackmore) is well traveled trail. Still this seems quite long, but I see few other possible alternatives, that would come close to as good a fit the ZMM Narrative.

Mr. Pirsig Response To My Above Questions Related To a Possible Bozeman Mountain Climb Route Consistent With ZMM Narrative. He had In His Hands the Abovementioned Illustrative GoogleEarth Views of Upper Cottonwood Canyon. Dated 13 Feb 07.

End Letters To/From Pirsig.

Here Starts Information Sent With My Letter Above: It Was Intended to Tell Mr. Pirsig How To Use GoogleEarth for Dynamic Views Of Cottonwood Canyon and Mt. Blackmore.

MUCH INFORMATION RE ENCLOSURES SENT WITH MY LETTER ABOVE.

How To Use GoogleEarth for Dynamic Views Of Cottonwood Canyon and Mt. Blackmore. These are included for your viewing pleasure.

START: INFORMATION RE ENCLOSURES SENT WITH MY LETTER ABOVE.!!!How To Use GoogleEarth for Dynamic Views Of Cottonwood Canyon and Mt. Blackmore. These are included for your viewing pleasure.

END INFORMATION RE ENCLOSURES.

http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/ album03/102_0254MakeStiTo0255SeeCaptionTxtInDiscript_IMG

The four-lane highway shown in
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album03/DSC_0176

Baggini-Pirsig interview is at:
http://www.philosophersnet.com/magazine/pirsig_transcript.htm

Matt Kundert’s website (Really a Blogspot) homepage is at:

Click here for More Robert Pirsig's letters To From Henry Gurr 1994 thru 2005.

December 2006 thru 23 Sept 2007 Letters To and From ZMM Author, Robert Pirsig. He Willingly Answered My Questions Concerning His Book and Other Topics:

Where available I have also included my correlated letter to Mr. Pirsig. A second document, also on this site, has Mr. Pirsig's letters for 1994 thru 2005. See menu at upper left.

My Questions to Mr. Robert Pirsig Concerning an Old Map of John Sutherland's, The ZMM Route Out of Minneapolis & The Mt. Climb Route in Mts. South of Bozeman. Dated 12 December 2006.

Mr. Robert Pirsig Response. Dated 27 December 2006.

My Additional Questions To Mr. Robert Pirsig To Clarify His Above Reply. Dated 3 Jan 2007.

Mr. Pirsig Response To My Above Questions After My WebPages Came Back Online. Dated 4 Jan 07.

My Additional Follow Up Questions: 1) What Was Mr. Pirsig's Original 1968 Travel Plan Through Oregon and 2) More Examination of What Was The Mountain Climbing Route With Chris In Mountains Near DeWeese Home? Dated 7 Feb 2007.

Two Questions
A) What were your original 1968 travel plan through Oregon, after you reached Prinville Junction Oregon?
A map of the ZMM Route through Oregon shows that you and Chris had a general Southwest direction ever since Idaho. It looks as if you were originally headed through central Oregon and on to the Oregon Pacific, where you would then follow the ocean to San Francisco. But at Prineville Junction (now incorporated into the North side of Bend, OR) the route makes an abrupt turn 90 degrees to go South on Rt 97. This was a very undesirable major highway which immediately took you through the very congested city of Bend. This doesn't make sense, and is inconsistent with not only the Narrator's general choice of highways for other parts of the ZMM Route, but also inconsistent with the Narrator's philosophy concerning highways. Since you were traveling generally West, it would seem likely that your original plan was to continue more or less West through Central Oregon to the Oregon Pacific Coast. The ZMM Narrative, with all the fatigue & depression, seems to suggest an abrupt major change of plans at Prineville Junction to turn South to an easier, faster, although less desirable route. In summary: Does a Central Oregon Route somewhat West to the Pacific Coast seem a likely possibility as your original travel plan?

B) More Examination of: Where Was The Mountain Climbing Route In Gallatin National Forest? Since so much of the ZMM Narrative is factual, it seems certain that the Part III mountain climb is similarly factual. Your email said you did not remember. I of course must ultimately accept this, but I still hope you will allow me to pry at the edges. And perhaps a few wisps of memory may yet peek out.

START: INFORMATION RE ENCLOSURES SENT WITH MY LETTER ABOVE.

Reproduced Here Is The Appendix (Slightly Modified For Web Audience) That I Enclosed With My Above Letter to Mr. Pirsig: [Apparently Mr. Pirsig was already quite familiar with GoogleEarth and said it was wonderful!]

My Letter to Mr. Pirsig mentions certain images were prepared with GoogleEarth. This is sort of a virtual reality machine to make 3D like landscapes from satellite earth photos. GoogleEarth, once installed in your computer, will show the same scenes as I sent to Mr. Pirsig. This system is a lot of fun to use and is a very powerful tool to investigate and dynamically explore the terrain of Cottonwood Canyon and possible mountain climb routes.
Persons wishing to use the Google Earth Images mentioned here in, should first have a fairly high speed internet connection (dsl) and have downloaded and installed the free version of GoogleEarth http://earth.google.com/ .

The Following Instructions I Sent To Mr. Pirsig Were Originally Here. I have replaced them, as follows, with special instructions for you dear ZMMQ visitor:

First GoogleEarth View
After you read these instructions as to what to expect, click next link below.
0) You may want to have a paper print of the following instructions, because they will be out of view after you click the link. (Lots of unfamiliar things will happen. You better make the print!)
1) You must first have GoogleEarth installed in your computer. See link above.
2) When you click on the link below, your computer might ask you to accept a download of a "..... ...806447673. kmz file".
3) Choose to open in "GoogleEarth kmz(default) file", and click ok.
4)The GoogleEarth software, already installed in your computer, should automatically open this downloaded file and the intended view should speedily come up.
5) Once the view comes up you can fly (mouse-drag) closer to the mountain (top center). Distant yellow stick pin is one of my hypothetical ZMM campsites.
6) Mouse-drag the circle (upper right) to change various angles of view, so you can study the route to the top. Great views. Essentially you can "fly" up a canyon or "fly" to and around the mountains!
7) Side by side comparison of a GoogleEarth view and one of my real photographs, at the same location, show very good accuracy of mountain shapes and even vegetation! Try it! It is easy, comes up quickly and is lots of fun! Static View 4 (mentioned several paragraphs below.) describes the GoogleEarth View You Will Now See of a) Cottonwood Canyon, b) Fox Creek Canyon, c) Narrator's Ridge at Mt. Blackmore's West flank marked by distant yellow stickpin, and d) distant Mt. Blackmore. Click link now.
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=79177

Second GoogleEarth View (This is Static View 6 described below.): Click below for GoogleEarth Overview of Mount Blackmore at link below. You can see Bozeman in distance & yellow stickpin marks ZMM campsite. (As mentioned above, you must first have GoogleEarth installed in your computer, see discussion above. The printed instructions mentioned above, will help you know what is happening.) Your computer will ask you to accept a download of a "..... ...277044549. kmz" file. When you see open in "GoogleEarth kmz(default) file", click ok.

GoogleEarth Photographic Views of Cottonwood Canyon, Gallatin National Forest" Sent To Mr. Pirsig With My Letter To Mr. Pirsig.Above.

These Were Paper Printed Versions Of The Same Scenes You Saw Above On GoogleEarth, except these were only six selected views and were on paper prints. These are the complete set of descriptions I sent. this way you will also have them for your interest and also know what Mr. Pirsig got.

Black & White Static Views Paper and Color Static Views on Floppy Disk. Included In Mr. Pirsig's Letter:
A) I enclosed [for Mr. Pirsig] 6 paper photos which illustrate a climb route. I believe these are consistent with the ZMM Narrator's clues. The following descriptions give additional information about each paper printed photo.
B)I enclosed [for Mr. Pirsig] a floppy disk having This had the same 6 photo images as mentioned above plus 5 others that are of interest.

Descriptions and Explanations To Go With the Six Printed Photographic Views Sent to Mr. Pirsig] Showing a Possible Mountain Climb Route Consistent With ZMM Narrator's Clues.

Static View 1

Static View 2. PlaceCottonwoodCanyonEyeLowest=6170ftSeeTipBlackmoreLumpRtRidge.jpg

Static View 3

Static View 4. AboveCottonwoodCanyonViewToMtBlackmore.FoxCreekIsAfter'Cloud'.NextSmallBrown =FoxCrMeadow.jpg

Static View 5.

Static View 6.

Conclusion: Well there you [Mr. Pirsig] have my hypothesis. What do you [Mr. Pirsig] think? I have only one major reservation: The distance, from the DeWeeses' is a fairly large ~9 miles. Chris and the Narrator could get pretty tired in that distance. Also this is quite a bit more than the Narrator's plans stated on page 173: "Three days hard to the snow. Four days easy." Mt. Blackmore is about 13 miles from the DeWeeses, so the Narrator's plan works out to about 3 to 4 miles per day.

END INFORMATION RE ENCLOSURES.

Mr. Pirsig Response To My Above Questions Related To a Possible Bozeman Mountain Climb Route Consistent With ZMM Narrative. I had Included the Abovementioned Illustrative GoogleEarth Views of Upper Cottonwood Canyon. Dated 13 Feb 07.

Dear Prof. Gurr

I think that I remember that the reason for turning south at Prineville Junction is that I wanted Chris to see Crater Lake.
I've been using Google Earth for several years and find that it's getting better all the time with more areas at higher resolution. Since this was the first time Chris had done any mountain climbing I wanted to keep the route short. We went nowhere near the places shown on your Earth map. We went maybe a half mile up Cottonwood Creek and then over the ridge into Hyalite Canyon by the shortest route.
Best Regards [Signed by hand] Robert Pirsig

My Additional Questions Concerning Certain Portions of ZMM Mountain Climb Narrative Fictional? Dated February 21, 2007. Mr. Pirsig's reply (post marked 5 Mar 07) was added in pencil to my original letter to him as is shown below in ALL CAPS.

My Letter Informing Mr. Pirsig Of My Most recent UpDates to My WebSite. Also I Urged Mr. Pirsig To: 1) Set Up Extensive Literary and Artifact Archives Re His Writings. and 2) Suggest He Make Various Lists of Books He Felt Would Best Support His MOQ Efforts & Other Book He Felt Were Influential. Dated 14 September, 2007.

Mr. Robert M. Pirsig
Box 3292
Portsmouth, NH 03802-3292
U.S.A.

Dear Mr. Pirsig

Thank you for your patient responses to my numerous questions last winter. You assistance is most appreciated, and of course always valuable for archival purpose s.

Since you gave me permission to post your letters thru the years, these now appear, together with my correspondence to you at the links below. I trust these are in good order and no old letters of importance are missing. Please tell me if anything needs improved or changed at:
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/Documents/LetPirsig1994-2005
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/Documents/LetPirsig2006-2007

Your last response stated that my proposed Hypothetical Hiking Trail "It doesn't fit" the ZMM Narrative. Accordingly I have changed my web pages to indicated this on following photo and the four maps that follow as well as several other places. http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album08/108_0895_IMG

My son, David Gurr, who has read both ZMM and Lila and kept up with my WebPage efforts, has a good suggestion for you or Ms Wendy Pirsig:

1) It would be valuable if you (or co-author) would compose/assemble an Reader/Anthology of Collected Articles Applicable to your writings and MOQ. Essentially a whole book devoted to that explain, support, expand, and extend the MOQ area of knowledge. At the end could be a list of good books, that you found valuable for yourself and for your writing efforts in general. In addition, you could compose/assemble a list of good books, that offer further explanation of your works.

2) Since the above Anthology Book would be al lot of work, he above suggested book list might be sufficient. This could be an Annotated Bibliography of the books that explain, support, expand, and extend what you have written. Of course an explanation of your opinions re these book and your suggested reading order, (what should be read first, second, etc …. ) would be a great added plus!

I hope the above suggestions are not too ambitious.

Another thing I have been meaning to mention to you, is the topic of your literary and artifact archives, even including your 64 Honda 305! I hope you have worked out some very secure plans for this to happen. As I have mentioned otherwise in other context, this would be for the future of humanity, having nothing to do with me. I know these resources saved for future generations are very important and very meaningful for lots of people!

For example: I have been to The Marion E. Wade Center Collection. The mission of the Wade Center is to collect, preserve, and make available to the public all writings related to these seven British authors: Owen Barfield, G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis, George MacDonald, Dorothy L. Sayers, J.R.R. Tolkien, and Charles Williams. These are archives (see link) of the works of the seven Oxford authors known as the "Inklings". This center is devoted to (massive complete) collecting and scholarship of these authors and has been quite helpful to me on many visits to learn more about Owen Barfield, and his writings. This center even has the original wooden wardrobe of C. S. Lewis's book "The Lion and the Wardrobe". I have not read any of his books nor am I a fan of Lewis, but it was quite fascinating and valuable to see it since I have heard so much about him!! The same would be true for your Honda and John's BMW. Such things archives of literary and artifacts stimulate interest and further investigation for both experts of ZMM and the passing public. All to the end of moving them forward to deeper attention and understanding of MOQ!
http://www.wheaton.edu/wadecenter/collection/index.html

A second example: My good friend, USCA English Professor Donald Blount, has been a long time scholar of Wallace Stevens. He has edited and annotated the book " The Contemplated Spouse: The Letters Of Wallace Stevens To Elsie". I believe all of Stevens original letters and writings were collected and held at the Huntington Library in Los Angelus. The library was of great assistance to Professor Blount, as he worked there to prepare this book. The Huntington Library was also quite instrumental in helping advance the publishing of the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls, a publication that was for way too long prevented by interests who wanted to keep their content secret. Thus their archived collection is very valuable.

These are my thoughts and present state of progress. I trust this letter finds you and your family well and full of Quality living

Sincerely

Henry Gurr,
Professor of Physics Emeritus
University of South Carolina Aiken
471 University Parkway
Aiken SC 29801
[ Additional Information Sent to Mr. Pirsig With My Above Letter.]

"The Huntington Library Research Resources
A Research Center for the Study of British and American History, Literature, Art History, and History of Science.
The Huntington Library is a research institution for the scholarly study of British and American history, literature, art history, and history of science. It has extensive collections of manuscripts, rare books, photographs, prints, and ephemera, and scholars are cordially invited to use them. In research materials for historical study, all periods of American history, from the period of discovery to the present, are represented, though not with equal emphasis. Acquisitions are continuing. A few notes can suggest the types of holdings, some of the areas of concentration, and other features of the Library as a research center."
http://www.huntington.org/ResearchDiv/researchinfo.html

Mr. Pirsig Response To My Above Questions. Dated 23 September, 2007

Sept 23, 2007

Dear Prof. Gurr

Thank you for your letter and all the good publicity your re giving ZMM and Lila.

Apart from what is stated in ZMM, and the same general education that everyone gets, there are no other sources for ZMM. and Lila. It is all "off the top of my head." Scholars sometimes consider this kind of originality to be inferior. Knowledge for them is properly derived from what someone has previously written, but I think this attitude is itself inferior. It is the old battle of static versus Dynamic Quality. The interview with Baggini, posted at www.MOQ.org, reflects this battle quite well.
Wendy is a journalist and historian and saves everything, including daily notes about our life together. I think she will probably do an excellent biography when I am gone. She certainly has all the biographical materials. The development of the MOQ also seems to be coming along with Anthony McWatt and David Buchanan and others. Keep an eye on Matt Kundert’s website. He has been something of a Bête noire in the past but he is a dedicated thinker and his writing is getting better and better.

Best Regards [Signed by hand] Robert Pirsig

Links to Internet Materials Mentioned by Mr. Pirsig above:

Baggini-Pirsig interview is at: http://www.philosophersnet.com/magazine/pirsig_transcript.htm

Matt Kundert’s website (Really a Blogspot) homepage is at:
http://pirsigaffliction.blogspot.com/

Somehow? Google top-ranked these two links for "Matt Kunders website":
http://pirsigaffliction.blogspot.com/2006/04/quality-as-archimedean-point.html
http://pirsigaffliction.blogspot.com/2006_04_01_archive.html

Click here for Robert Pirsig's letters To From Henry Gurr 1994 thru 2005.

Click here for Robert Pirsig's letters To From Henry Gurr 1994 thru 2005.

See the 4 maps shown on following link: (NOTE: Chick map a second time to get larger version.) {Your letter answered my question. Thank you. However that raises another question: On the map you sent you showed a route up from Cottonwood Canyon that could hardly be called a "Seldom entered canon" as stated in ZMM. My 3 hypothetical climb routes include Fox Creek Canyon which would better fit these words. What are your thoughts? Also the route you showed, most probably would not have running water in summer. This September, I hiked up part way up a small run-off gulch very near the route up you show, and I was dry, dry. What are your thoughts? }

Gennie DeWeese has written that she had a good time with you and the MOQers and that she is now known everywhere as the painter in ZMM. I have given my final interview to the Guardian /Observer in England and it has turned out to be the best one ever. It can be accessed via the bottom links in Wikipedia for Pirsig. The long version is the best and includes information that may surprise some readers.

Prineville, Powell Butte, Redmond, Bend, La Pine, Crescent, Rt 230 approach and West side of Crater Lake NP, Visitor Center & Village at Crater Lake National Park, Fort Klamath, Pelican City (by Klamath Lake), Klamath Falls, Rocky Point, Two unnamed squares, Medford, Grants Pass, No towns listed along Rt 199 to Oregon/Calif border. Note: Because of the low resolution map scale chosen for this map (20 mile to inch) some detail is omitted for the non-main roads they probably traveled in 1968. Such as: 1) The Crooked Canyon Road fm Prineville to Prineville Junction North side of Redmond, 2) The road thru the center of Crater Lake Nat Park, and 3) The off main road ZMM climax scene at Caspar, CA. This detail is discussed in my respective Part IV ZMM Sights & Scenes Photos.

http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/index.php/Documents/LetPirsig1994-2005?

December 2006 thru April 2007 Letters To and From ZMM Author, Robert Pirsig. He Willingly Answered My Questions Concerning His Book and Other Topics:

Mr. Robert Pirsig Response To My Questions. Dated 27 December 2006.

As Mentioned In Mr. Pirsig's Letter Above, Here Is a Description of the Eleven Colored Paper Maps He Sent Me. For Each Map I Indicate the Series of Main Towns That Appear Along The Route He Marked In Red Thereon.

In all cases the marked route is indicated by a bold red overlay on the route marked. These were all created by one type of computer software, but of style unfamiliar to me. They were not Mapquest or other style that I recognize. These are not likely Microsoft origin since Pirsig has a Mac Computer. Stylistically these maps all show a "1 inch = xx mile" scale bar at the lower right. Immediately below the scale bar, all maps show the words "GPS Map Detail". This suggests that these maps were created by a GPS computer program intended to work with these maps as well as placed these maps on a hand held GPS unit.

How To Use GoogleEarth for Dynamic Views Of Cottonwood Canyon and Mt. Blackmore. These are included for your viewing pleasure.

This Was The Appendix Enclosed With My Above Letter to Mr. Pirsig: [Apparently Mr. Pirsig was already quite familiar with GoogleEarth and thought it was wonderful!]

My Letter to Mr. Pirsig mentions images were prepared with GoogleEarth. This is sort of a virtual reality machine to make 3D like landscapes from satellite earth photos. GoogleEarth, once installed in your computer, will show the same scenes as I sent to Mr. Pirsig. This system is a lot of fun to use and is a very powerful tool to investigate and dynamically explore the terrain of Cottonwood Canyon and possible mountain climb routes.
You should first have a fairly high speed internet connection (dsl) and have downloaded and installed the free version of GoogleEarth http://earth.google.com/ .

The Following Instructions I Sent To Mr. Pirsig Were Originally Here. I have replaced them with special instructions for you dear ZMMQ visitor:

First GoogleEarth View (This is Static View 4 described below.): Click below for GoogleEarth Overview of Cottonwood Canyon & Fox Creek Canyon, and distant Mt. Blackmore. Also shown is ridge at Blackmore's West flank marked by distant yellow stickpin. (NOTE: You must first have GoogleEarth installed in your computer. See link above.) When you click on the link below, your computer might ask you to accept a download of a "..... ...806447673. kmz file". Choose to open in "GoogleEarth kmz(default) file", and click ok.

The GoogleEarth software, already installed in your computer, should automatically open this downloaded file and the intended view should speedily come up. Once the view comes up you can fly (mouse-drag) closer the mountain (top center). Distant yellow stick pin is possible ZMM campsite. Mouse-drag circle (upper right) to change various angles of view, so you can study the route to the top. Great views. Essentially you can "fly" up a canyon or "fly" to and around the mountains! Side by side comparison of a GoogleEarth view and one of my real photographs, at the same location, show very good accuracy of mountain shapes and even vegetation! Try it! It is easy, comes up quickly and is lots of fun!] http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=79177

Second GoogleEarth View (This is Static View 6 described below.): Click below for GoogleEarth Overview of Mount Blackmore at link below. You can see Bozeman in distance & yellow stickpin marks ZMM campsite. (NOTE: You must first have GoogleEarth installed in your computer, see discussion above.) Your computer will ask you to accept a download of a "..... ...277044549. kmz" file. Then you see open in "GoogleEarth kmz(default) file", click ok.]
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=79665

As stated above, the GoogleEarth software, already installed in your computer, should automatically open this downloaded file and the intended view should speedily come up. Once your computer has opened this file in GoogleEarth viewer, you can then use your computer mouse on the slide bar (at upper right) to increase elevation, tip the landscape view and then use mouse hand to pull scenery closer and closer to Mt. Blackmore. More information at http://earth.google.com/

In summary: The above mentioned photo descriptions will be shown by GoogleEarth scenes. The ability to "fly" allows detailed accurate dynamic exploration of possible climb routes. More discussion of my reasons for choosing this route, keyed to relevant ZMM passages, are on captions of the ZMMQG photos for Part III. They are accessed at
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album08?page=1

I have enclosed [for Mr. Pirsig] 6 paper photos which illustrate a climb route. I believe these are consistent with the ZMM Narrator's clues. The following descriptions give additional information about each paper printed photo.

Color Static Views on Floppy Disk. Included [In Mr. Pirsig's letter] for your interest:

The enclosed floppy disk has folder "GoogleEarthImagesAsSavedJpgPhotos". This has the same 6 photo images as mentioned above plus 5 others that are of interest. The photos on this floppy are saved jpg images that should open just fine on a Mac computer. File names should be self explanatory of what the picture shows.

Descriptions and Explanations To Go With the Six Printed Photographic Views [I Sent to Mr. Pirsig] Showing a Possible Mountain Climb Route Consistent With ZMM Narrator's Clues

Mr. Pirsig Response To My Questions Related To a Possible Bozeman Mountain Climb Route Consistent With ZMM Narrative. I had Included the Abovementioned Illustrative GoogleEarth Views of Upper Cottonwood Canyon. Dated 13 Feb 07.

Dear Prof. Gurr

I think that I remember that the reason for turning south at Prineville Junction is that I wanted Chris to see Crater Lake.
I've been using Google Earth for several years and find that it's getting better all the time with more areas at higher resolution. Since this was the first time Chris had done any mountain climbing I wanted to keep the route short. We went nowhere near the places shown on your Earth map. We went maybe a half mile up Cottonwood Creek and then over the ridge into Hyalite Canyon by the shortest route.
Best Regards [Signed by hand] Robert Pirsig

Were Certain Portions of ZMM Mountain Climb Narrative Fictional? Dated February 21, 2007. Mr. Pirsig's reply (post marked 5 Mar 07) was added in pencil to my original letter to him as is shown below in ALL CAPS.

[Click here for Pirsig's letters for 1994 thru 2005. | http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/index.php/Documents/LetPirsig1994-2005 ]

December 2006 thru April 2007 Letters From ZMM Author, Robert Pirsig. He Willingly Answered My Questions Concerning His Book and Other Topics:

Where available I have also included my correlated letter to Mr. Pirsig. A second document, also on this site, has Mr. Pirsig's letters for 1994 thru 2005.

My Questions to Mr. Robert Pirsig Dated 12 December 2006.

Dear Mr. Pirsig

Enclosed is a DVD with an Interview with John Sutherland. It concerns his views on your book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It is recorded on a standard DVD which should immediately play on your computer of other DVD player. I hope you will enjoy this and will send feedback as to what you think of it.

In addition to all my previous questions you have graciously answered in the past, I hope you will be able to answer some more questions herein.

On the above mentioned DVD menu you will see play choices which show maps. One on these maps Mr. Sutherland said was yours. If this once was (or was not) your map could you please tell us, as a matter of ZMM Research data, the following: 1) What was the approximate date that you added your marked travel route on this map? 2) How much did this route, shown on the DVD map, expressed at the time your general travel objectives for your ideal trip out West? 3) Was there any thing you had wanted to see especially in San Francisco? For example did you attempt to look into Zen communities there or go the any form of Zen Center? And 4), Were the travel objectives shown on this map what eventually became your travel route described in ZMM? Also shown on this map was an alternate route over Donner Pass in California which connected to a route that follows along the Humboldt River + Deserts in Nevada and connecting (in Idaho) to the Oregon Trail and from there following the Oregon Trail to the East. 5) Was this alternate route somewhat your planed return route from the Pacific Coast to Minneapolis? 6) Can you tell us what return route you did take in 1968 from San Francisco (or California) and did you ride your Honda 305 all the way back? {Thanks for your reply to this.}

You may have heard from Anthony McWatt, in Sept 2006, that I again traveled the ZMM Route from Minneapolis to Bozeman. The original plan was for me to help Anthony find good photo locations for his own upcoming DVD production. Although I wasn't much help in finding locations, I took the opportunity to do more needed ZMM Field Research. This was a continuation of what I did in 2002, and was quite successful at filling-in what I had managed to miss previously.

A) The following paragraphs introduce some of what I found. These findings now appear as new content on my WebSite, most especially in the captions of the Gallery Photographs, which you may view and read at the given Internet Links. I hope you will be able to look at what is written on these and I would sincerely like to receive your comments on what you see. As always, this is to do the best possible at getting a correct data for ZMM Research. I believe this to be important for future generations.

B) What was the ZMM Route out of Minneapolis? What are your thoughts re the following choices? a) Following the much less traveled Rt 55? OR b) following the highly commercialized & very high traffic of Rt 10 mentioned to Gary Wegner recently as being the one you remember as taking in 1968? Please study both of these:
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album03/102_0254MakeStiTo0255SeeCaptionTxtInDiscript_IMG
AND
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album03/DSC_0176

B) What was your 1968 original route plan after Prinville Junction, Oregon? Please study both of these two links:
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album08/113_1331c
AND
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album08/113_1324c

C) What was your mountain climb route in the Gallatin National Forest? See Link below for WebMaps showing my Hypothetical Climb Route (WayPts N+C 01 thru N+C 33). Note that the 4th map is a "zoom in" enlarged portion for the climax climb to "the ridge". Two alternate climb routes are also shown on the map. (These have numbers N+C 34 and higher.) Could you comment on the probable accuracy of this route, as relates to what might have happened in 1968? For example, do you have any of your old topo maps that have your planed route marked? Or, what can you remember? Either way could you please mark any of your ideas, or comments, on the paper maps and send back to me?
See the 4 maps shown on following link: (NOTE: Chick map a second time to get larger version.) {Your letter answered my question. Thank you. However that raises another question: On the map you sent you showed a route up from Cottonwood Canyon that could hardly be called a "Seldom entered canon" as stated in ZMM. My 3 hypothetical climb routes include Fox Creek Canyon which would better fit these words. What are your thoughts? Also the route you showed, most probably would not have running water in summer. This September, I hiked up part way up a small run-off gulch very near the route up you show, and I was dry dry. What are your thoughts? }
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album08?page=3

D) My REASONS for the climb route choices, as shown on this Hypothetical Climb Route Map mentioned above, are given in the 37 WebGallery Photos following the first link below. Color versions of these four maps start at the second link below. However, these can not really be a serious solution, so you may ignore these. I would be interested in your comments. See the next 36 photographs starting with:
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album08/DSC_0103

My ZMM Research has generated lots of other questions, but these must wait for another day.

Best Wishes To Your Family. I trust you all had a Merry Christmas and are starting a Happy New Year.

Sincerely
[Signed in hand]
Henry Gurr
Note: Original version of this letter had missing links. The revised version you see above was sent later to Mr. Pirsig.

Mr. Robert Pirsig Response To My Questions. Dated 7 Jan 2007.

Dear Prof Gurr
John Sutherland seems to have handled the questions very well. I have no memory of marking the previous map. Probably I did not take that road [marked on map] because it was too heavily traveled. I'm attaching maps of the route from Prineville Junction back to Minneapolis and also the route climbed from Cottonwood Canyon. San Francisco was seen as a good end for the book but, as these new maps show, we went on to Hollywood to stay with a friend before returning home. We took the Honda all they way home. The links to your main website To Google and Wikipedia are not working so I can't answer those questions. It looks like the entire usca.edu site is blocked and has been all day. Highway 10 is the way we went out of Minneapolis.
Gennie DeWeese has written that she had a good time with you and the MOQers and that she is now known everywhere as the painter in ZMM. I have given my [http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1952011,00.html |final interview} to the Guardian /Observer in England and it has turned out to be the best one ever. It can be accessed via the bottom links in Wikipedia for Pirsig. The long version is the best and includes information that may surprise some readers.
Best regards, [Signed Robert Pirsig]
[Hand written] PS We didn't know about the Zen Center in San Francisco in 1968.

More Questions to Mr. Robert Pirsig To Clarify His Above Reply. Dated 3 Jan 2007.

Dear Mr. Pirsig

Thank you for your prompt reply to my letter.

I am delighted that you were so pleased with your Guardian Interview. I had already seen it compliments to Ian and Anthony. Indeed it is a very good interview. Much better than the Philosopher one.

Thanks for the maps of mountain climb and your return trip. I will revise my site accordingly ASAP, which will be in several weeks because I will be away on a long trip.

I am sorry my site was down. They were doing routine maintenance and power was off and Paul Lewis on Semester Break had not been back to restore it. My site has well over 99% up time for years now. So you caught it at a bad time.

Anyway I hope you will find my site available to answer these questions now in a REVISED letter ..... attached. Previous letter had missing links.

Sincerely
[Signed in hand]
Henry Gurr

Mr. Pirsig Response To Above Questions After My WebPages Came Back Online. Dated 4 Jan 07.

Dear Prof. Gurr,
The reason I couldn’t find your websites before was that I absent-mindedly put the URL’s into Google for a search, which, of course, couldn’t find them, Now that I have found them these are my comments.
The four-lane highway shown in http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album03/DSC_0176
must be a repaving of the US 10 we traveled on in 1968. It was 2-lane, concrete, cracked and broken in places when we traveled on it .
The highway shown in http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album08/113_1331c
Was also a two laner and more crowded. It would be surprising if there had not been some improvement in the last 38 years.
The scene in
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album08/113_1324c
is not one I remember but we did occasionally hit bad stretches like this.

Your guess is as good as mine about the mountain route we took. I remember that the descent to the Hyalite canyon was extremely steep. Also Chris left his jacket behind. If anyone finds a brown cloth jacket with darker brown imitation leather sleeves that looks 38 years old he will have found our route. If it is still there it is probably down lower than the route you took. The ridge was dry then too.. We took our water with us.

All this research into the ZMM route makes me feel prehistoric, but I suppose it helps the book move along.

Bob Pirsig

As Mentioned In Mr. Pirsig's Letter Above, Here Is a Description of the Eleven Colored Paper Maps He Sent Me. For Each map I Indicate the Series of Main Towns That Appear Along The Route He Marked In Red.

In all cases the marked route is indicated by a bold red overlay on the route marked. These were all created by one type of computer software, but of style unfamiliar to me. They were not Mapquest or other style that I recognize. These are not likely MicroSoft origin since Pirsig has a Mac Computer. Stylistically these maps all show a "1 inch = xx mile" scale bar at the lower right. Immediately below the scale bar, all maps show the words "GPS Map Detail". This suggests that these maps were created by a GPS computer program intended to work with these maps as well as placed these maps on a hand held GPS unit.

Mr. Pirsig's Map Shows following Towns For His 1968 Travel Route In Oregon From Prinville to California Border.
Prineville, Powell Butte, Redmond, Bend, La Pine, Crescent, Rt 230 approach and West side of Crater Lake NP, Visitor Center & Village at Crater Lake National Park, Fort Klamath, Pelican City (by Klamath Lake), Klamath Falls, Rocky Point, Two unnamed squares, Medford, Grants Pass, No towns listed along Rt 199 to Oregon/Calif border. Note: Because of the low resolution map scale chosen for this map (20 mile to inch) some detail is omitted for the non-main roads they probably traveled in 1968. Such as: 1) The Crooked Canyon Road fm Prineville to Prineville Junction North side of Redmond, 2) The road thru the center of Crater Lake Nat Park, and 3) The off main road ZMM climax scene at Caspar, CA. This detail is discussed in my respective [http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album09 | Part IV ZMM Sights & Scenes Photos].

Mr. Pirsig's Map Shows following Towns For His 1968 Travel Route In California From Oregon border to West Hollywood, CA.
Rt 199 from Oregon/California border thru Patrick Creek, Smith River National Recreation Area (See http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_nra/ca_smit.htm ), Jedediah Smith Redwoods State Park, (Now change to Rt 101) Crescent City, Prairie Creek Redwoods State Park, Berry Glenn, Eureka, Fortuna, Weott, Leggett, (Leave 101. Turn onto Rt 1= Pacific Coast Highway), Rockport, Hardy, Westport, Inglenook, (now 1 inch = 1 mile) Fort Brag, Caspar, Gayle = ZMM climax location, Return North on Rt 101 to Ocean View, (Leave Rt 1 and go inland on Rt 20) ((now 1 inch = 7 mile), Whisky Springs, Willets, (Now back on Rt 101), Redwood Valley, Ukiah, Cloverdale, ((now 1 inch = 15 mile), Santa Rosa, Petaluma, San Rafael, San Francisco, (now 1 inch = 50 mile) (Now on Rt 1 = Pacific Coast Highway), Santa Cruz, Monterey, Lucia, San Luis Obispo, Lompoc, Los Angelus, (now 1 inch = 1.5 mile), (Leave Rt 1 and turn onto Santa Monica Freeway), West Hollywood, turn North on La Brea for 1.5 mi. (Map scale: 1 inch = 20 mile except where indicated.)

Mr. Pirsig's Map Shows following Towns For His 1968 Travel Route Home from West Hollywood, CA to Minneapolis, MN. This one map of the entire USA, shows primarily Interstate Highways, and by inference these Interstates were the type of highways he used, except where noted. The "red highlighted" route, in some cases, shows fine grade detail that indicates non-Interstate "short cuts". Accordingly where a non-Interstate is shown, I have interpolated, from the shown specific details, which was the route Mr. Pirsig intended to indicate: I-15 from Los Angelus, thru Las Vegas into Central Utah where turn East onto I-70 thru Grand Junction to Denver. Turn onto I-76 and then turn onto I-80 thru Omaha to Lincoln. Take Rt 77 North to join Rt 75 and continue to Sioux City. Continue Rt 75 and soon turn off onto Rt 60. Continue NE to I-90, turn East until the turn North onto Rt 169 thru Mankato to Minneapolis. (Map scale: 1 inch = 300 mile)

More Follow Up Questions: 1) What Was Mr. Pirsig's Original 1968 Travel Plan Through Oregon and 2) More Examination of What Was The Mountain Climbing Route With Chris In Mountains Near DeWeese Home? Dated 7 Feb 2007.

Dear Mr. Pirsig

I am back from my recent trip and getting on to updates of ZMMQ WebPages.

Thank you for your prompt replies to my letter back in December and email follow-up. I thank you again for your map of 1968 Bozeman mountain climb and especially for maps of your return trip, as well as your answers to my other questions. I am currently preparing revisions to my WebPages to incorporate this new information you sent me.

And as I work into the new web updates, I am impelled to request your further indulgence concerning two questions you have already partly answered. However, if you think these questions do not merit your additional attention, then I will let them go.

I believe these two questions deserve your further consideration and will establish important facts concerning your writing of ZMM. Four hundred years from now your readers will want to know many details concerning your works. To understand the truth of this, consider readers of Don Quixote. Even now these readers go to Spain to see the sights and scenes of Cervantes' book! And they are tremendously rewarded by the experience!

Two Questions

A) What were your original 1968 travel plan through Oregon, after you reached Prinville Junction Oregon?

A map of the ZMM Route through Oregon shows that you and Chris had a general Southwest direction ever since Idaho. It looks as if you were originally headed through central Oregon and on to the Oregon Pacific, where you would then follow the ocean to San Francisco. But at Prineville Junction (now incorporated into the North side of Bend, OR) the route makes an abrupt turn 90 degrees to go South on Rt 97. This was a very undesirable major highway which immediately took you through the very congested city of Bend. This doesn't make sense, and is inconsistent with not only the Narrator's general choice of highways for other parts of the ZMM Route, but also inconsistent with the Narrator's philosophy concerning highways. Since you were traveling generally West, it would seem likely that your original plan was to continue more or less West through Central Oregon to the Oregon Pacific Coast. The ZMM Narrative, with all the fatigue & depression, seems to suggest an abrupt major change of plans at Prineville Junction to turn South to an easier, faster, although less desirable route. In summary: Does a Central Oregon Route somewhat West to the Pacific Coast seem a likely possibility as your original travel plan?

B) More Examination of: Where Was The Mountain Climbing Route In Gallatin National Forest? Since so much of the ZMM Narrative is factual, it seems certain that the Part III mountain climb is similarly factual. Your email said you did not remember. I of course must ultimately accept this, but I still hope you will allow me to pry at the edges. And perhaps a few wisps of memory may yet peek out.

To help you I have included six [paper] printed photos made by GoogleEarth. These images show views of Cottonwood Canyon which are consistent with the ZMM Narrative climb route to "snow". A cover page attached to the photos has a full caption, with relevant ZMM passage, for each photo. These descriptions include why I think the trail shown fits the ZMM Narrative. I trust these will receive your fullest attention. But in the process, I also hope you will enjoy the photos and re-acquaintance with Cottonwood Canyon, Fox Creek and Mt. Blackmore.

After you study the printed photos, could you comment on the general adequacy of this route shown in the six photos. Does the route fit the ZMM Narrative. Does this route and the views shown, fit any wisps of memory? Or alternatively comment on any other events that might have happened during your mountain climb with Chris 1968 that should be added?

For you interest, each of the six printed photos as well as five others, are also included on the enclosed floppy disk. These should come up ok on your Mac computer and will show color as seen by the original satellite photograph.

In case you are interested in digging deeper, I have added an Appendix to the photos, which tells more how to have your own GoogleEarth download in your computer, and use it to view these same places dynamically! I had a lot of fun using this and thought I would share some files that allow you to go to these same places and "fly" up the canyon and around the mountain. These files (.kml), which only work with GoogleEarth, are also on the floppy in a second folder. Try it! You will be amazed how powerful and wonderful a research tool GoogleEarth is!

My ZMM Research has generated lots of other questions, but these must wait for another day.

Thank you again for all your help and I trust the joy of spring time will soon be visiting you and yours.

Sincerely

Henry Gurr

PS: From John Sutherland I just received a packet of 8 color photos showing Anthony McWatt crew and myself when we visited him in Minneapolis this past Sept. He seems to be doing fine and is as active as ever. I could send you a CD full of photos of our visit in Minneapolis, if you are interested. As you can imagine, we took gobs of photos and would be glad to share. Just let me know.

Enclosures in my above Letter to Mr. Pirsig Which Were Obtained Using GoogleEarth: Virtual Photographic Views of Cottonwood Canyon, Gallatin National Forest.

Static Views Paper:

I have enclosed 6 paper photos which illustrate a climb route. I believe these are consistent with the ZMM Narrator's clues. The following descriptions give additional information about each paper printed photo.

Color Static Views on Floppy Disk. Included for your interest:

The enclosed floppy disk has folder "GoogleEarthImagesAsSavedJpgPhotos". This has the same 6 photo images as mentioned above plus 5 others that are of interest. The photos on this floppy are saved jpg images that should open just fine on a Mac computer. File names should be self explanatory of what the picture shows. [Here is how to view two of the GoogleEarth Views mentioned below:
1)Click below for GoogleEarth Overview of Cottonwood Canyon, Fox Creek Canyon and distant Mt. Blackmore. Also shown is ridge at Blackmore's West flank marked by distant yellow stickpin. http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=791773
Must first have GoogleEarth installed in your computer. (See link below.) When you click on the above Mt. Blackmore link, your computer will ask you to accept a download of a "..... ...806447673. kmz file". Choose to open in "GoogleEarth kmz(default) file", and click ok. Once the view comes up you can fly (mouse pull) closer the mountain (top center). Distant yellow stick pin is possible ZMM campsite. Mouse pull circle (upper right) to chance the view, so you cam study the route to the top. Great views. Try it! It is easy, comes up quickly and is lots of fun! http://earth.google.com/
2)Click below for GoogleEarth View of Mt. Blackmore and ridge at its West flank. See Bozeman in distance & yel pin mark ZMM campsite. http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=796655
Must first have GoogleEarth installed in your computer, (link below.) Your computer will ask you to accept a download of a "..... ...277044549. kmz" file. Open in "GoogleEarth kmz(default) file", click ok. You can "fly" (mouse pull), change direction, or move higher. Great views. Try it! It is easy, comes up quickly, & lots of fun! http://earth.google.com/

Descriptions and Explanations To Go With the Six Printed Photographic Views Showing a Possible Mountain Climb Route Consistent With ZMM Narrator's Clues

Static View 1.

PlaceCottonwoodCanyonEyeLowest=6162ftJustFirstSeeTipBlackmore.jpg
In this GoogleEarth View, we are about 2 miles along the NFS trail in Cottonwood Canyon, and approaching a slight turn in the canyon to the right. This reveals for the first time the tip of Mt. Blackmore, a mountain high enough for summer snow. This view fits the snow and closer ridge of the ZMM Narrator's description on page 173: “Just up above the top of the ridge the snow can be seen now. On foot it’s many days away though. The rocks below it are too steep for a direct hiking climb, particularly with the heavy loads we are carrying, and Chris is way too young for any kind of ropes-and- pitons stuff..“
Gallatin National Forest topo maps show Mt. Blackmore as one of the better candidates for a climb to Summer snow from the DeWeeses'. Mr. Dan Roy, Bozeman Office US Forest Service, says that Mt. Blackmore is the closest and most practical to access from Cottonwood Canyon. From the DeWeese home it is some 12 miles, depending on route.
What is the white cloudy looking patch direct ahead? Those are clouds that happen to be in the straight down satellite photos that GoogleEarth works with. GoogleEarth simply drapes, what ever is in the satellite photo, over the smoothed mountain shapes, whether it be the land, rocks, trees, or clouds, etc. You also see a North indicator in upper right. This gives the correct North orientation for the straight down satellite view at this location, but is somewhat misleading when the view is mostly horizontal as in this photo. The North indicator would be correct if you laid it down flat. Hence in this view, North is to the left rear of the viewer.

Static View 2. PlaceCottonwoodCanyonEyeLowest=6170ftSeeTipBlackmoreLumpRtRidge.jpg

In this GoogleEarth View, we are about 3 miles along the NFS trail in Cottonwood Canyon. The relatively straight stretch of the canyon nicely reveals the tip of Mt. Blackmore for viewers nearly at the canyon floor. This view shows a ridge line, closer and below Mt. Blackmore, that potentially fits the Narrator's descriptions on page 173: “Just up above the top of the ridge the snow can be seen now. “ and later “ We must cross over the forested ridge we are now approaching,“. In this view, I believe the ridge mentioned is the lower and much closer generally horizontal ridge seen below Blackmore. However, from the actual NFS trail ahead, it seems more likely that the Narrator, following the canyon bottom, went around the right end of this closer ridge, rather than crossing over it. It is important to note that the hike must have proceeded at least to this spot, some 3 miles from the DeWeeses, in order to be able to see "snow" from the NFS trail in the bottom of Cottonwood Canyon.

Static View 3.

LowViewCottonwoodCanyonBlackmore+BrnRidgePtRt.jpg
In this GoogleEarth View, we are a bit over 3 miles from the DeWeeses' showing a view similar to the previous, but the point of view has been optimized to show a side ridge that fits the Narrator's “ .... then come back at an upward angle along to the ridge.“ This ridge (light brown) is seen here to connect to the right flank of the visible Mt. Blackmore. This ridge would allow both a reasonable climbing route to top of Blackmore, and fit the description of coming back at an upward angle. This ridge is what I have marked on my HSG Hypothetical Mt Climb Route Maps. This photo shows that indeed there is a closer ridge that must be looked over to see "snow" and indeed from the canyon bottom one can also see a second ridge attached to Blackmore that could used to access Blackmore with a “ .... then come back at an upward angle along to the ridge.“

Static View 4. AboveCottonwoodCanyonViewToMtBlackmore.FoxCreekIsAfter'Cloud'.NextSmallBrown =FoxCrMeadow.jpg

In this view we are high above Views 1-3. Cottonwood Canyon passes, down stream, from upper right to the center of the view. As I have marked in black, the route turns left from Cottonwood Canyon into Fox Creek Canyon beyond the white "cloud". It's water follows a series of zig-zags from the snow bowel at the bottom flank of Mt. Blackmore. Here Fox Creek fits one of the most important ZMM climbing route clues page 181: “This is apparently a seldom-entered canyon this far up. After another hour of hiking we see that the trail is about gone." This implies the canyon they turn into is fairly good sized and has a trail that is less used than that in Cottonwood Canyon and the trail gives our. Fox Creek Canyon well fits these cues as well as other important clues.

Static View 5.

UpperFoxCreekCloserToMtBlackmore.jpg
In this view we are still high above and looking forward along the valley of Fox Creek to Mt. Blackmore. We see Fox Creek's headwaters come from the bowl at the left base of Mt. Blackmore. Note the ridge that joins at right flank of Mt. Blackmore. This ridge was the ridge seen from a distance in View 3. The climb route is hard to see here, but is much clearer in the next view.

Static View 6.

HypotheticalTrailCampsiteUpperFoxCreek&BaseMt.BlackmoreSeeJpg
From the previous view we have moved directly toward Mt. Blackmore. Ridge to right of campsite is possible climb route to peak Mt. Blackmore as marked in black. I have marked a possible campsite that is consistent with the ZMM Narrative.

Conclusion: Well there you have my hypothesis. What do you think? I

have only one major reservation: The distance, from the DeWeeses' is a fairly large ~9 miles. Chris and the Narrator could get pretty tired in that distance. Also this is quite a bit more than the Narrator's plans stated on page 173: "Three days hard to the snow. Four days easy." Mt. Blackmore is about 13 miles from the DeWeeses, so the Narrator's plan works out to about 3 to 4 miles per day.
However nine miles in one full day seems possible, since normal walking speed is ~ 3 Miles per hour and over 2/3 of Cottonwood Canyon + Fox Creek route to a campsite near base of Blackmore is well traveled trail. Still this seems quite long, but I see few other possible alternatives, that would come close to as good a fit the ZMM Narrative.

How To Use GoogleEarth for Dynamic Views Of Cottonwood Canyon and Mt. Blackmore. These are included for your viewing pleasure.

This Was An Appendix Enclosed With My Above Letter to Mr. Pirsig: [Apparently Mr. Pirsig was already quite familiar with GoogleEarth and thought it was wonderful!]

The above mentioned images were prepared with GoogleEarth. This is sort of a virtual reality machine to make 3D like landscapes from satellite earth photos. GoogleEarth, once installed in your computer, will show the same scenes as the above "Static views". But GoogleEarth can show a lot more! This system is a lot of fun to use and is a very powerful tool to investigate and dynamically explore the terrain of Cottonwood Canyon and possible mountain climb routes.
You should first have a fairly high speed internet connection (dsl) and have downloaded and installed the free version of GoogleEarth http://earth.google.com/ .

[GoogleEarth instructions intended for Mr. Pirsig were originally here. I have replaced them with special instructions for you dear ZMMQ visitor:

Click below for GoogleEarth Overview of Cottonwood Canyon, Fox Creek Canyon and distant Mt. Blackmore. Also shown is ridge at Blackmore's West flank marked by distant yellow stickpin. (Must first have GoogleEarth installed in your computer. See link above.) When you click on the link below, your computer might ask you to accept a download of a "..... ...806447673. kmz file". Choose to open in "GoogleEarth kmz(default) file", and click ok.
The GoogleEarth program in your computer should automatically open this downloaded file and the intended view should speedily come up. Once the view comes up you can fly (mousepull) closer the mountain (top center). Distant yellow stick pin is possible ZMM campsite. Mousepull circle (upper right) to change various angles of view, so you can study the route to the top. Great views. Try it! It is easy, comes up quickly and is lots of fun!] http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=79177

[A second GoogleEarth Mount Blackmore view is available at link below. You can see Bozeman in distance & yellow stickpin marks ZMM campsite. (Must first have GoogleEarth installed in your computer, link above.) Your computer will ask you to accept a download of a "..... ...277044549. kmz" file. Then you see open in "GoogleEarth kmz(default) file", click ok.]
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=79665

Once your computer has opened this file in GoogleEarth viewer, you can then use your computer mouse on the slide bar (at upper right) to increase elevation, tip the landscape view and then use mouse hand to pull scenery closer and closer to Mt. Blackmore. Essentially you can "fly" up a canyon or "fly" to and around the mountains! Side by side comparison of a GoogleEarth view and one of my real photographs, at the same location, show very good accuracy of mountain shapes and even vegetation! More information at http://earth.google.com/

In summary: The above mentioned photo descriptions will be shown by GoogleEarth scenes. The ability to "fly" allows detailed accurate dynamic exploration of possible climb routes. More discussion of my reasons for choosing this route, keyed to relevant ZMM passages, are on captions of the ZMMQG photos for Part III. They are accessed at
http://ww2.usca.edu/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/album08?page=1

Mr. Pirsig Response To My Supplying GoogleEarth Views of a Possible Mountain Climb Route Consistent With ZMM Narrative. Dated 13 Feb 07.

Were Certain Portions of ZMM Mountain Climb Narrative Fictional? Dated February 21, 2007.

Mr. Pirsig's reply, post marked 5 Mar 07, was added in pencil to my letter, as shown below. (Mr. Pirsig did not add signature or initials.)

Dear Mr. Pirsig

Thank you for your prompt replies to my letter dated 7 Feb 07.

But I guess am a bit disappointed to hear that you and Chris only went about 1/2 mile into the forest. This is because the ZMM Narrative would lead us to believe your trail really made a lot of progress up to that snow. Am I to conclude that there is a considerable difference between the ZMM Mountain Climb Narrative and the route you and Chris used to cross over to Hyalite Canyon from Cottonwood Canyon? Are we to conclude that certain portions [especially physical scenes] of the ZMM Mountain Climb Narrative , like the Bad Storm of Chapter 3, were fictional parts of the book? RP REPLY: "YES".

All this leaves a residual question: How well does my hypothetical mountain route fit with the ZMM Mountain Climb Narrative? Would you care to comment on this?
RP REPLY: "It doesn't fit".

Any way I hope you enjoyed the photos and re-acquaintance with Cottonwood Canyon, Fox Creek, and Mt. Blackmore. Did you use Google Earth to "fly" up the canyon to the mountain? RP REPLY: "Yes".

I will be away for about a week starting now. Upon return I will continue preparing revisions to my WebPages to incorporate new information you have sent me in your last several letters.

I will scan your Cottonwood to Hyalite Canyon map and post as a jpg to my site. I would like have your permission to post portions of your most recent letters so others can see your answers. The enclosed document with your replies shows what I think suitable. What do you think?
RP REPLY: "- OK".

Also you have through the years sent to me some 5 or 6 letters. May I also post those? I would place them in a new Wiki WebPage titled "Letters From Robert Pirsig". What do you think? RP REPLY: "- OK".

Thank you again for all your help. The robins have been coming thru here in mass and yesterday I heard two Cardinals in a song contest. I hope they will soon be visiting you and yours. RP REPLY: "They've been here all winter!!".

Sincerely
[signed in hand]
Henry Gurr

RP Replies unsigned.

A second document, also on this WebSite, has Pirsig's letters for 1994 thru 2005.